The debate was between James White (see his review) of Alpha & Omega Ministries and Abdullah al Andalusi.

I’ve spent much time recently thinking about debates with Christians vs. Atheists… so refreshing to hear a debate between two Theists, and on a topic at the core of my Christian beliefs.

The debate had two opening arguments, some cross-examination, some rebuttals and then a break, after which there was a Q&A. Sadly I had to leave at the break!

There was a good turn out and good debate, with both sides putting forward fairly sensible arguments. But I left feeling short changed with the Islamic scholar for three reasons:

1. He failed to engage with the Christian understanding of the Trinity, James White noted that the Qu’ran also misunderstands the Trinity. This came about because he did not accept James White’s opening statements about the difference between the nature and personhood of God.
2. He began his opening statement with fallacious attacks on the reliability of the New Testament, not the issue at hand, thankfully James White enlightened him and gifted him with a translation of the Bible which includes the manusrcipt source of every text.
3. He didn’t give any positive reasons, based on the Qu’ran why anyone should believe in Islam…?

What do you think? You can listen to the debate audio here…

His response to the question – “Where does morality come from?” – is to say that morality is inate in all humans.

Does anyone else see the massive hole in this point of view if you also ascribe to an atheistic evolutionary worldview??

I love Hitchens rhetoric, but his arguments are full of inconsistencies.

“My secret is that I need God–that I am sick and can no longer make it alone. I need God to help me give, because I no longer seem to be capable of giving; to help me be kind, as I no longer seem capable of kindness; to help me love, as I seem beyond being able to love.”

Douglas Coupland – Life After God

Simplifying to the extreme, I define postmodern as incredulity towards metanarratives.

Lyotard – The Postmodern Condition

A heart that’s full up like a landfill,
a job that slowly kills you,
bruises that won’t heal.
You look so tired-unhappy,
bring down the government,
they don’t, they don’t speak for us.
I’ll take a quiet life,
a handshake of carbon monoxide…

Radiohead – No Surprises

One of the things that came up in passing was about Final Judgement…

Isa (Jesus) according to Islam is the one who will execute final judgement. For the Muslim, as I understand (I may well be wrong), they hope (uncertain hope) that Muhammed will intercede, will give a good word to Isa.

So the question is quite simple…

Why follow the mediator (Muhammed), when you can be friends with the judge himself (Jesus)?

…it seems like a more certain way to approach final judgement?

But the question is… When was the Bible corrupted?

Was it corrupted before Muhammed?

Well this seems unlikely given what the Qu’ran says about the Bible… Sura 4:136 says that Muslims are to believe in God, in the Qu’ran and in the Bible (“the scripture He has revealed before”). Why would the Qu’ran call Muslims to believe a corrupt document?

Or, was it corrupted after Muhammed?

It seems, given the Qu’ran’s endorsement of the Bible that it must have been corrupted after Muhammed’s revelation. Muhammed died in AD 632. But we have lots of manuscripts before that date… check out the Codex Sinaiticus a complete manuscript of the Bible, dated to the fourth century.

So… if the Bible was corrupted, when was it corrupted?

The 48th name for Allah is “The Loving”

In the Qu’ran 85:14, Allah is described as being “full of love”

My understanding of Islamic thought is that Allah is eternal, and therefore his qualities of love are also eternal.

So, the question: Whom did Allah love in eternity before the creation of the world?

Christians believe in a Triune God, 1 God, 3 Persons, in a loving relationship for all eternity. God displays his eternal quality of love to His Son and His Spirit forever and ever – God does not need to create Man to show love, but rather chooses to create Man out of an overflow of the loving relationship of the Triune God.

However, it would appear that Allah needs to create in order to love. The quality of love within Allah cannot be eternal because it can only be exhibited when Man is created. Therefore Allah becomes dependant on Man… this cannot be so! Please explain.

• Be honest (9)
• Don’t kill (6)
• Look after the vulnerable
• Respect your mother and father (5)
• Enjoy life
• Nothing in excess
• Be true to your own God
• Treat others as you would like to be treated
• Be true to yourself
• Protect your family
• Try your best at all times
• Look after your health
• Don’t commit adultery (7)
• Live within your means (10)
• Appreciate what you have (10)
• Never be violent
• Protect the environment
• Protect and nurture children
• Take responsibility for your own actions
• Don’t steal (8)

Interesting how closely they line up. I reckon at least 6 of the Commandments are found here in this list… I suspect there are lots of others that link closely to Biblical proverbs and wisdom. However, my minister helpfully pointed out the commandments that are missing… the missing 4 all relate to the worship of God… funny how as a society we quite like Godly wisdom but don’t like where and from whom it comes!

Anyway… I got home early, so popped to a barbers near Brighton station – hair was a serious mess! Having hair cut, by a girl, mid-twenties probably… and we got talking about the gospel… people always ask about work, so working for a church is a great conversation starter (also a conversation killer!). We only had about 5 mins to talk… but three big blockers (as Tim Keller calls them) came up…

• I work for a church… oh I’m not religious
• Do you believe in God?… oh no, I believe we’re here because of evolution
• I believe Jesus says and does what only God can do (and proves it)… ok, but how do I know he’s the right God, there’s so many out there

It was clear that there was unfounded prejudice about Christian beliefs, a narrow-mindedness to look into the evidence, but I think deep down a desire to know the truth. Good chat. Same issues always come up don’t they, nothing new under the sun…

The Bible says it is! – 2 Tim 3:16

Thus says the Lord, I tell you the truth,

That is a circular argument – yes, it has to be!

Think about the American Constitution…

Expanding the circle…

Prophecies Fulfilled

Unity of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation

Harmony between 40 authors over 1500 years in 3 languages

Style of writing – factual, eyewitness accounts, ‘little details’

“I have been reading poems, romances, vision literature, legends and myths all my life. I know what they are like. I know none of them are like this.”… they are either reportage, or the first realistic novelistic writing without predecessor or successor…

CS. Lewis

Archaeology – Ebla archive, Hittites found in Turkey (19^th Century)

Dead Sea Scrolls – The Book of Isaiah (150 B.C.)

Secular Historians – Josephus, Tacitus

Christian Historians – Tertullian, Justin Martyr

How do we know that what we read is what was written?

See Manuscript Evidence!

What about all the different versions?

Translation Errors There are errors in the Bible! - “as originally given”

Transcription Errors 24,000 copies, check the footnotes (Mark 16)

Four Points of the Gospel

God created us in his image, for his glory

We have rejected God’s rightful rule over us as his creation and deserve to die

God sent his Son, the man Jesus Christ to take the death penalty for our rejection of him and to restore a right relationship with God

We will face God in judgement, there are two pleas, “I will take the punishment for my rebellion” or “Jesus took the punishment for my rebellion”

Is it coherent?

Does it correspond with reality?

Does it work?

We make our own errors…

Changing Scripture

Jehovah’s Witnesses – systematic removal of references to the deity of Jesus

“[Paul] writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” – 2 Peter 3:16

Adding to Scripture

‘Strict’ / Legalists – adding rules and morality not given by the Bible

Charismatics – too high a view of prophecy?

Roman Catholics – Papal Infallibility?

Denying Scripture

“There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behaviour for all time.”

– Bishop John Shelby Spong, ‘New Reformation’

Misinterpreting Scripture - It’s all down to interpretation!

Is God loving or wrathful? Is homosexuality a sin? Can women lead churches?

CONTEXT is KEY!!!

How should we view the Bible?

“The Holy Bible, as originally given, is the inspired and infallible Word of God. It is the supreme authority in all matters of belief and behaviour.” – CMFs Christian Beliefs

2 Timothy 3:16 Breathed out by God, thoroughly equipped for every work (Sufficient)

Hebrews 1:1-2 God’s final word, all about Jesus, from God (Authoritative)

Luke 24:44 One book, one message… it really is all about Jesus

How should we answer questions from non-christians?

- Avoid disputable matters – creation, end times, spiritual gifts, election etc.

- If you don’t know, say so! Be honest and come back with an answer.

- Be prepared. Study the Bible. Study apologetics. (1 Peter 3:15)

- Look behind the question. Who’s asking it? Why are they asking it?

- Pray for the questioner. Pray for your answer. Be gracious in your response. (Colossians 4:2-6)

Herod, Quirinius and Jesus’ Birth, Luke 2

Caesar Augustus 63BC – 19AD

Herod the Great Died 4BC

Quirinius Governor from 6AD (Josephus)

Consul from 12 BC (Deeds of Augustus)

Advisor to Augustus’ son in Armenia and Syria (Tacitus)

The Bible says Quirinius was ‘governing’ in Syria, not the Governor

Census’

- Augustus had the power, used it to tax provinces

- 104 AD (Gaius Maximus), 48 AD (Tiberius Claudius)… required a returning to native land

Tertullian – 155-222 AD

Tertullian, a lawyer of the second century, had no trouble reconciling the statement of Luke 2:2 that Quirinius was “hegemon” of Syria with Saturninus’ governorship of Syria, because he would have understood Quirinius’ position in Syria as a special assignment. Because of the special assignment of Quirinius, Luke refers to him as the “hegemon” during the registration. Schurer mentions other scholars who have accepted the position that Quirinius was a special legate to carry out this census.

- See Emil Schurer, The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ

Canon of Scripture

Irenaeus AD 160 – Four Gospels

Justin Martyr, in the early second century, mentions the “memoirs of the apostles,” which Christians called “gospels” and which were regarded as on par with the Old Testament

Origin 3^rd Century – 27 New Testament books

Athanasius 367 AD – calls 27 books ‘canonized’

Synod of Hippo 393 AD – confirms canon

Divinity of Jesus – Council of Nicea 325 AD

Heretic called Arius

Vote was 318 – 2

Gospel of Thomas

GoT 114: Simon Peter said to them, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life.” Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Manuscripts

(Total New Testament manuscripts = 5,300 Greek MSS, 10,000 Latin Vulgates, 9,300 others = 24,000 copies)
(Total MSS compiled prior to 600 AD = 230)

Sir David Dalrymple sought to do this, and from the second and third century writings of the church fathers he found the entire New Testament quoted except for eleven verses (McDowell 1972:50-51; 1990:48)! Thus, we could throw the New Testament manuscripts away and still reconstruct it with the simple help of these letters. Some examples of these are (from McDowell’s Evidence…, 1972 pg. 51):

Clement (30- 95 A.D.) quotes from various sections of the New Testament.
Ignatius (70-110 A.D.) knew the apostles and quoted directly from 15 of the 27 books.
Polycarp (70-156 A.D.) was a disciple of John and quoted from the New Testament.

3 Types of Error

Textual

Written within eyewitness time frame (from 15 years)

Lots of copies

Good oral tradition as back up

…see manuscripts (Josh McDowell)

Factual

Written within eyewitness time frame (from 15 years)

No problems for the early church and early historians

Named eyewitnesses (Mark 15:21), 500 witnesses (1 Cor 15)

Most ‘errors’ aren’t when read in context

Secular history is not 100% reliable, the Bible sometimes wins (Hittites)

Fabrication - it’s a bad one!

Unhelpful facts – women witnesses, Peter’s denial, Mark runs away, crucified leader…

Genuine Error – casts doubt on ‘God breathedness’ rather than on truth

Social / Cultural

Slavery? Women? Sex?

Mark 14 (argument from TK – Reason for God)

62“I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

71He began to call down curses on himself, and he swore to them, “I don’t know this man you’re talking about.”

Mark 16:7 – Peter restored to leadership

Why is our culture deemed more progressive? How arrogant!

‘Stepford God’? - The Bible should contradict us!

Isn’t the Bible full of errors?

The short answer is NO!

If the Bible is God’s word as it says (2 Tim 3:16), then it will be true.

That is a massive circular argument, BUT it has to be – just like the American Constitution!

God’s word must be ‘self-authenticating’, but we can look to other evidence to expand this circle of argument.

Expanding the Circle

Textual Errors?

• Eyewitnesses still around when words are committed to paper
• Huge number of copies to compare with one another for errors (see manuscript table)

Factual Errors?

• Written when eyewitnesses were around, starting around 15 years after Christ
• Early Church and historians have no problems with so-called errors
• Eyewitnesses are named (Mark 15:21), 500 at one time (1 Cor 15)
• Secular history is not 100% accurate – see Hittite example where the Bible was right from the start
• If the Bible is fabricated then it’s a bad job – women witness the resurrection, first church leader denies Jesus, and the movement is based on a crucified leader

Social / Cultural Errors?

• Different cultures are offended by different bits of the Bible (see Mark 14, example from Tim Keller – Reason for God)
• We are arrogant when we assume our culture is more progressive than others!
• The Bible should contradict us (see Keller, ‘Stepford God’)

4 Main Points of Christianity

We shouldn’t ignore possible errors in the Bible, we need to think, discuss and research.

But we shouldn’t use possible errors to dismiss the Bible completely or to avoid addressing the central claims of the Bible…

1. We were created by God, for God
2. We’ve been happy to live in God’s creation, but without God, we deserve to die because of this rebellion
3. Jesus Christ, God-as-man, died. His death acts as a substitution, he dies where we should have died.
4. When we face God in judgement, we can take the punishment for our rebellion on ourselves or trust in Jesus that his death in our place restores a right relationship with God.

There was about 15 people at the MCU meeting – I was going to talk about how we as Christians ‘make our own errors’ in the Bible by poor theology or poor handling of the Bible, and how we can best respond to non-Christians. However, there were I think 4 non-Christian guests, so I went more evangelistic, there was good discussion afterwards, although this inevitably focused more on Genesis 1 than on those 4 central claims of the Bible. But it was a good discussion anyway!